There is a differance between a "clear thinking Charismatic" and what we see in the modern perversion of spiritual gifts in most Pentecostal circles. I don't know much about Tim Conway and his ministry, but how he deals with the verses in 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 is something I can agree with.
Nolan
This guy took it to scripture....Great stuff. He said pretty much exactly what I believe on the subject and this may be the first time I've ever seen someone say it. I may have to check this guy out.
ReplyDeleteTongues were understood by the demons from the woman's testimony you mentioned because the only genuine tongues speaking today is found among the false, cult religions. You (Piper, Mahaney, et. al.) are in error and Lord willing will be delivered from this false gift from the Deceiver in these end times.
ReplyDeleteLM
LM -
ReplyDeleteI think this guy is saying that just because this gift has been abused, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It is in scripture and we cant ignore it. I personally just need to be shown clearly in scripture that this gift has ended and I'll be turned around. Solo Scriptura....its scripture alone that we in use to interpret scripture....nothing else
LM:
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think of the verse in 1 Cor that speaks of tongues ending when the perfect comes? What do you take the perfect to be? (It may not matter but I dont believe that the author of this post needs to be delivered as he is trying to understand the gifts not claiming to have the gift of tongues).....the question is not "are tongues being abused and mimicked by satan..that is clearly happening...the question is.."have the gifts ceased?" is the gift of tongues still active today? I would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.....
“It is in scripture and we cant ignore it.”
ReplyDeleteTaking your comment above would then mean we can’t ignore the imprecatory psalms or the Nazarite vow (Numbers 6).
LM
Lou,
ReplyDeleteTongues were understood by the demons from the woman's testimony you mentioned,
I don't think I mentioned it, Tim Conway did in the video.
the only genuine tongues speaking today is found among the false, cult religions.
It can't be "genuine" and "false" at the same time can it? We do know from scripture that satan is in the business of fakery. Paul speaks of the abuse to the church at Corinth not so much as an abuse of the gifts as attributed to satan, but more along the lines of the fruit of the flesh.
You (Piper, Mahaney, et. al.) are in error and Lord willing will be delivered from this false gift from the Deceiver in these end times.
I never said that I speak in tongues. I never said that I am actually sold 100% that these gifts are still for us today. I did say that as I study this issue it does become difficult to explain from "scripture" that these gifts have ended. I will say I have drifted from the position of a staunch cessationist at this point. I am still looking at both sides of the issue. I did say I agree with his interpretation of 1 corinthians 13:10, concerning who or what the "perfect" is. We know that certain gifts will be done away and cease. But when is that? That is the crux of the issue. I am interested in hearing your side on the issue as well. Would you allow me to open a post dedicated to your position and thoughts on being a cessationist?
A q&a type deal.
Wouldnt the Nazarite vow be different as it is not something given specifically to the New Testament Church? The comment that "its in scripture and we cant ignore it" is not the same as saying "its in scripture so we have to do it"....
ReplyDeleteI think we all just want to know where in scripture we are told that tongues have ceased? We see that they will cease and we see that scripture says it will happen when the perfect comes.....so why do people say that it has ceased now? Thats all..............
Nolan:
ReplyDeleteMy initial comments were in regard to the video presenter. Sorry, I did not make the distinction that you are not him.
As to your offer of a Q&A, I will respectfully decline. It is settled for me- tongues have ceased, they are not for today and should not be sought. The propagation of this by Piper and Mahaney should be vigorously resisted by better qualified persons than me lest others fall into this doctrinal trap.
Frankly, I’d really like to see what John MacArthur will do about this; if anything ever. JMac rejects the charismatic movement yet he will host and fellowship with Piper and Mahaney as if nothing is amiss. Why? IMO, because of their like-mindedness over Calvinism and his disdain for the biblical principles of separation much is tolerated by MacArthur.
In closing I suggest you read the article by Dr. Peter Masters titled, The Merger of Calvinism with Worldliness Here is a sample:
“A final sad spectacle reported with enthusiasm…is the Together for the Gospel conference, running from 2006. A more adult affair convened by respected Calvinists, this nevertheless brings together cessationists and non-cessationists, traditional and contemporary worship exponents, and while maintaining sound preaching, it conditions all who attend to relax on these controversial matters, and learn to accept every point of view. In other words, the ministry of warning is killed off, so that every -error of the new scene may race ahead unchecked.”
Kind regards,
LM
Nolan,
ReplyDeleteI was really hoping LM would give his opinion on the verse that I am struggling with.....I see the perfect as being Jesus due to the language of scripture...face to face was used in Gen and Judges to refer to seeing God directly....I know others say it is the closing of scripture...
LM: I believe the name of the conference gives it away: they are together for the GOSPEL....not the gifts, not the denominations, not the music etc...but the GOSPEL that unites us....
Blessed:
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, "they are together for the GOSPEL...the GOSPEL that unites us...."
I want to share something of vital importance with you here.
I trust you are aware of the Manhattan Declaration (MD) its ecumenical nature and that in addition to a host a Roman Catholic priest signatories it was also signed by Al Mohler and J. Ligon Duncan.
With Mohler and Duncan signing the MD they have undermined the Gospel by extending recognition to the deadly enemies of the cross of Christ i.e., the Gospel (Phil. 3:18). That was not their intention, but it IS the result of their signing the MD with the RCC priests.
The Bible expressly forbids this kind of ecumenism (2 John 6-11; 2 Cor. 6:14-ff.). Mohler and Duncan are now beyond any doubt disobedient brethren. Mohler and Duncan refused the admonitions and correction from men like MacArthur. They will not repent.
So, now what you have at T4G in April are men who have given Christian recognition to the RCC and MacArthur, although admonishing them, sitting together as if nothing is amiss. That is a mixed message at best. Mohler and Duncan signing the MD undermined the Gospel. This is NOT something to unite around.
LM
I trust our host won’t mind my linking you to my blog where in a series I fully document and commented from the Scripture on what the MD means to the NT church and the grave damage that was done with Mohler and Duncan signing it. See- Al Mohler Signs The Manhattan Declaration…
You may find this very helpful and enlightening. Follow the link at the end of each to all four in the series. Part 2 is the most penetrating look at the steady pattern of ecumenism in the ministry Al Mohler in particular.
LM
ReplyDeleteI totally disagree with the men that signed the Manhattan Declaration...I agree that had it not expressely stated that they were united in the gospel of Jesus Christ then it could have been signed...they joined with non christians on the gospel...I have completely not thought about them doing a conference together since that signing...I know the article you linked to earlier was against these conferences before the signing of that document...because of music and gifts and styles not the gospel....when you bring in the signing of the document you add another layer to it that I really must think about...I understand they were admonished as Paul admonished Peter....I do not know their response to those admonitions...but I know they did not intentionally undermine the gospel..they are not enemies of the cross..they are still the brethren...the original reasons for men not liking the conferences are exactly the school of thought that divides us...I think the Lord allows us to all be different and convinced differently on issues to draw out our love for the brethren...we love one that thinks like us and agrees with us , we do well, even the heathen do so...but when we love the brethren that we disagree with, that is Jesus...a work of the Holy Spirit...there are issues that divide us but do not seperate us as christians/non christians.....I will read what you linked to and I am sure Nolan wont mind it being here...though he would prefer us to stay on topic....sorry Nolan!
Lou,
ReplyDeleteI do thank you for your comments. The link to your site being posted here is fine as well. I have visited your site often. With that said, the issue on this post is about the gifts ending at some time in the past or in the future. You have chosen not to address the issue and some questions that were asked of you, and that is fine. The issue here is not the T4G conference nor the MD. Although those are very important issues they are way off target for the subject of this post. Blessed will post on the subject in which the two of you are engaged. You have raised some important questions.
Again I am glad you posted here. Hope you continue. Your thoughts are appreciated.
Blessed:
ReplyDeleteFor clarification and last word on the off-topic, it is the RCC and unbelievers that are the "enemies of the cross," not the brethren.
LM
Nolan:
ReplyDeleteThanks for hosting me in this thread.
LM